The Gaming Den

angelfromanotherpin wrote:

TheFlatline wrote:However, the odds of a mundane getting the better of a forsaken is pretty rare. You need "something special". Ta'verin, Mat's "Devil's Own Luck" or his past memories, whatever...

Yes, it is fortunate that Ta'veren, also known as being a PC is a recognized in-setting trait.

Ta'veren is a feat that you can take at 1st level. Being a PC doesn't make you Ta'veren.

I dunno, Frank. I can see some assumptions that have various Y/N toggle switches.

*Is magic rare (Y/N)

*Is magic hard to learn (y/n)

*Is magic only countered by other magic (y/n)

You could totally do a tech-versus-magic dichotomy by having iron weaken or neutralize magic. I read one urban fantasy thing (had fairies as its shtick) where it sort of did that. In another I read (and actually enjoyed) more recently, yeah, were a character wore an iron amulet to null or weaken the majority of magic that came at him.

Or you could have a setting where magic is useable by everyone--you really can learn a prayer or a chant or a ritual to do an offering just by looking it up. You don't have to be 'speshul majik person' to use magic--anyone can learn it, potentially, just like math. Wizards and sorcerors and other groups really are people who specialize in it, like, say, most people can change their oil or change out a flat tire, but the people who specialize in all things related to 'car' are called mechanics. Magic would be more like a skill here.

D&D has all three of those assumptions set to "Y"--magic really is rare, it takes huge time and effort to learn and use, and the only counter to magic is more magic. All three of those, but especially the last, is what sets up caster dominance.

So how about this: people (or whatever you care about) is getting killed on another plane and you want to stop that.

How do you do planar travel without magic?

Afaik you can't and I do want planar travel available in dnd so in any dnd game I'd play magic / magic friend / magic items whatever is appropriate will be needed.

ishy wrote:So how about this: people (or whatever you care about) is getting killed on another plane and you want to stop that.

How do you do planar travel without magic?

Afaik you can't and I do want planar travel available in dnd so in any dnd game I'd play magic / magic friend / magic items whatever is appropriate will be needed.

That's a good topic, but a couple of things:

1) Can you name an actual story where that is a thing? Because if you can't, I'm not really interested in examining it.

2) The goal is not to support no magic. The goal is to support no casters. In my very first example, I acknowledge that the use of a flying broom is necessary. In Planescape, anyone can travel between planes, often by walking. That's totally magic, but Beowulf could do it.

ishy wrote:So how about this: people (or whatever you care about) is getting killed on another plane and you want to stop that.

How do you do planar travel without magic?

Afaik you can't and I do want planar travel available in dnd so in any dnd game I'd play magic / magic friend / magic items whatever is appropriate will be needed.

It's not without magic, it's without spellcasting. It's pretty easy to have fixed tears in space that are simply rifts you can walk through. And obviously they have to exist because somehow you heard about someone getting killed on another plane.

FrankTrollman wrote:I am totally at my wit's end as regard your casual dismissal of a character waving his arms and having a ghost army eliminate an enemy army. That is a really big deal, and while I grant that there are non-magical means to do something like that, they mostly involve having another army and pulling one of those out of your ass without magic is pretty weird.

Of course it's a big deal. It's wicked awesome, and it seems to involve much less work and risk than e.g. getting to and dueling/seducing the Admiral of Umbar for command of the fleet. Having the caster option be better is fine, presumably it has its own limits (army of ghosts is one use ever, man, also it may have unpleasant side effects). The important thing for the purposes of this discussion is that the noncaster option exists and is sufficiently plausible.

Any magic that makes you lose without magic, whether it's Maleficent's death curse or a direct casting of MotW Miasma is something that well, makes you fucking lose if you don't have magic.

Sure, tautology admitted, but those effects do not have to exist. Malificent's curse and similar could be mandated to include its own bypass, like a lot of effects are mandated to in Champions.

Hell, it's cliche now, but what if the hero deliberately had Aurora prick her finger under controlled circumstances and just resuscitated her after she died - curse fulfilled and also beaten, no casters needed.

Maybe it's mages turning all your beat sticks into pigs or holding your swordsmen up in the air with telekinesis only to drop them onto pikes when they get bored like in Willow

Under the right circumstances, it's fine if the Big Bad can kick around the hero group. That's just being high level/point value/whatever. I don't think Madmartigan and Sorsha could defeat Lu Bu either (that seems to take three badasses). Is there any reason the telekinesis/pigging can't be a dodgable or otherwise resistable effect?

or maybe it's a ghost who can only be hurt by magic like in fucking everything.

In folklore, many ghosts can be banished by laughter or other displays of not fear. Or weird folk rituals like turning your pants inside out or finding their mortal remains and putting some in your sword hilt. But I don't really object to the muggle hero having a magic sword. It's a solution with issues that you've discussed, but it can work.

Magic does "stuff" that physical shit does not do, that is why it is magic. And once that shit happens, you need magic to fight back or you fucking lose.

Isn't one of the conceits of Fantasy Cyberpunk Heartbreaker that magic is not the best counter to magic?

Jack and the Beanstalk is a story crowded to the brim with magic that breaks the laws of physics, and the hero at no point does anything physical that a reasonably fit person couldn't do. That kind of thing is all over the place in the source material.

Your whole plan of making it so magicians are unnecessary in a world that has them is stupid. Of course you need magic if it's available. Otherwise why fucking bother playing in a world that has magic at all?

The idea is that in a fantasy adventure game, it should be fine for some, all, or none of the PCs to be casters, even at the top of the setting.

angelfromanotherpin wrote: 2) The goal is not to support no magic. The goal is to support no casters. In my very first example, I acknowledge that the use of a flying broom is necessary. In Planescape, anyone can travel between planes, often by walking. That's totally magic, but Beowulf could do it.

I'm not sure I fully understand this.
A caster generally just channels magic.
What can a caster do that you can't replace with a magic item?

Magic items are problematic, precisely because the difference between a caster and a person with a lot of items or a very versatile item can be pretty obscure. They're not a preferred solution, but they'll do in a pinch.

In particular, something like a magic sword which is just a sword that doesn't become irrelevant when magic is involved - it can parry spells, affect magic creatures, cut through bonds of force like they were regular chains, etc. - isn't too bad. Once it starts being able to teleport by cutting space, or blinding enemies who gaze on it with its glare, the muggle starts to lose their cachet.

Getting limited-use or situationally-useful magical effects is one of the reasons that invoked contrivance is an important thing to include. *This* ghost can be harmed by his ancestral sword because of its connection to his ancestors, *this* spell can be broken by true love's kiss, and so on.

angelfromanotherpin wrote: Isn't one of the conceits of Fantasy Cyberpunk Heartbreaker that magic is not the best counter to magic?

Jack and the Beanstalk is a story crowded to the brim with magic that breaks the laws of physics, and the hero at no point does anything physical that a reasonably fit person couldn't do. That kind of thing is all over the place in the source material.


The idea is that in a fantasy adventure game, it should be fine for some, all, or none of the PCs to be casters, even at the top of the setting.

FrankTrollman wrote: The available game balance options are to either make every player character magic to one degree or another (Earthdawn, WoT), or to allow the non-casters to provide some other thing that is nonetheless necessary to advance the plot (Shadowrun, Conan).

Uh?

What you're proposing to "allow the non-casters to provide some other thing that is nonetheless necessary to advance the plot" is "give them magical bullshit at the behest of the Mister Cavern". That's pretty terrible.

You don't expound upon what non-magical characters have that isn't magic on their behalf (or merely being fit, like in Jack and the Beanstalk), so your argument shits the bed right then and there. Besides, haven't we had the "narrative conceits don't work in RPGs because you aren't writing in narrative conceits for the players" argument a bunch of times?

angelfromanotherpin wrote:

ishy wrote:So how about this: people (or whatever you care about) is getting killed on another plane and you want to stop that.

How do you do planar travel without magic?

Afaik you can't and I do want planar travel available in dnd so in any dnd game I'd play magic / magic friend / magic items whatever is appropriate will be needed.

That's a good topic, but a couple of things:

1) Can you name an actual story where that is a thing? Because if you can't, I'm not really interested in examining it.

2) The goal is not to support no magic. The goal is to support no casters. In my very first example, I acknowledge that the use of a flying broom is necessary. In Planescape, anyone can travel between planes, often by walking. That's totally magic, but Beowulf could do it.

Stargate. They go from planet to planet (plane to plane), but they use magic items instead of casters. Not exact, but close enough.

So, if you have magic you can set up a planetwarp and if you don't you have to shank anyone trying to block the stargate?

angelfromanotherpin wrote:

ishy wrote:So how about this: people (or whatever you care about) is getting killed on another plane and you want to stop that.

How do you do planar travel without magic?

Afaik you can't and I do want planar travel available in dnd so in any dnd game I'd play magic / magic friend / magic items whatever is appropriate will be needed.

That's a good topic, but a couple of things:

1) Can you name an actual story where that is a thing? Because if you can't, I'm not really interested in examining it.

Gilgamesh, Hercules, Orpheus.

According to Hercules, you can travel to Hades by killing yourself, then beating up Death in personal combat. But that sounds suspiciously like a spell, and in any case is not an option in most settings.

-Username17

According to most greek stories I've read, you can travel to Hades on foot, simply by knowing what cave to go through.

Avoraciopoctules wrote:So, if you have magic you can set up a planetwarp and if you don't you have to shank anyone trying to block the stargate?

Well, yes, that's basically how it works. A stargate really isn't much different from a mountain pass, or a valley, or an isthmus; There's an easy way from point A to point B, and people can stand in your way if they want to block your travel. At that point you can go around the hard way (get a ship, climb mountains, etc) or you can stab them until they're not standing in your way any more. The "hard way" in planar travel is "spend X levels in Wizard to learn to cast the spell yourself", which is a lot harder than the other hard ways.

Or, you could allow the other option that Stargate does, Astral Chariots / Spelljammers / Starships taking you from place to place; though more slowly than the direct travel of stargates/rifts.

This conversation has gotten super retarded.

If you accept that items made by spellcasters can duplicate whatever the fuck it is that spellcasters do in your setting, then non-spellcasters don't need actual spellcasters in their party so long as the MC obligingly gives them access to all the spellcaster tricks they need through items that were presumably made by NPC spellcasters at some point.

That observation is trivially true, but it's amazingly bullshit. The player characters in that scenario are not only still dependent upon spellcasters, but also on DM pity. You might as well advocate the "Gandalf Solution", where the MC simply accompanies the party with a spellcaster of substantially higher level to get all the plot bullshit over and done with while the players continue to play low level meat shields.

-Username17

Why do magic items have to be made by spellcasters? Is there a reason they can't accrue enchantment through age, lineage, deeds, or whatever?

If your class features include invoked contrivance, you can be explicitly not reliant on MC pity. Conan wakes up with a Phoenix on his sword because the hypothetical player was empowered to have that happen, not because the hypothetical DM dropped it on him.

And like I said upthread, duplicating casters is not the point. It's more like the people who are into muggle heroes won't accept someone parrying firebolts with skill, but they will accept people parrying firebolts with a magic sword, so their wuxia class features come with a handle. But it's still a parry and not a sphere of protection. Even then, I consider the magic item to be a lazy solution because most of the time it's not actually needed.

angelfromanotherpin wrote: If your class features include invoked contrivance, you can be explicitly not reliant on MC pity. Conan wakes up with a Phoenix on his sword because the hypothetical player was empowered to have that happen, not because the hypothetical DM dropped it on him.

If your class features allow you to specify when and where magical effects will happen, you are a spellcaster.

-Username17

If you can make magic things you are a magic user. This gets back to the vacuity of power sources: there's no real difference between the mage who uses a magical book to cast her spells and a mage who crafts a magic wand to cast her spells. There's barely any difference between the above and a mage who is given her magic by the gods, regardless of whether that magic comes in the form of invocations or relics.

There's no secret 'I use magic but I'm not a magic user' way out.

That's a good point. It could certainly be obfuscated to appease the muggle-likers, but that's not less condescending than pocket magician solutions.

FrankTrollman wrote:If your class features allow you to specify when and where magical effects will happen, you are a spellcaster.

Monks! The new spellcaster class.

echo

Ultimately, magic is to fantasy as technology is to sci-fi.

There is no meaningful difference between being able to cast Disintegrate three times per day and being able to fire your Phaser three times at full power before needing to recharge the batteries for eight hours.

The only real difference is that Kirk can give his phaser to another character and the wizard can't.

Ultimately, the distinction between caster and non-caster in a fantasy setting is as arbitrary as a distinction between tech-users and non-tech-users would be in a sci-fi setting.

Giving a rod of stunning and disintegrating to a fighter doesn't make him a wizard any more than giving a phaser to a security officer makes him an engineer.

But the distinction is there and supporting it requires certain concessions. You really do need weaknesses and loopholes that muggles can exploit and you need them to go all the way up to the top.

If you're trapped in a Force Cage, you need to be able to pry the panel off the wall and short circuit it, just as if you had been beamed into the Enterprise's brig. If you want t strong caster/muggle distinction then there should never be a case with a muggle is totally helpless against magic.

Are casters necessary?

Well, we couldn't very well have shopping carts, strollers or office chairs without them.......